Southwood Presbyterian Church

Derek | May 16 2011 at 1:17 pm

Jean, sounds like a lot of fun and a great way to fellowship.

Anonymous | May 17 2011 at 8:20 am

Drug Experts Say Alcohol Worse Than Crack or Heroin

Alcohol is a more dangerous drug than both crack and heroin when the combined harms to the user and to others are assessed, British scientists said Monday.

Presenting a new scale of drug harm that rates the damage to users themselves and to wider society, the scientists rated alcohol the most harmful overall and almost three times as harmful as cocaine or tobacco.

According to the scale, devised by a group of scientists including Britain’s Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs (ISCD) and an expert adviser to the European Monitoring Center for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA), heroin and crack cocaine rank as the second and third most harmful drugs.

Ecstasy is only an eighth as harmful as alcohol, according to the scientists’ analysis.
Professor David Nutt, chairman of the ISCD, whose work was published in the Lancet medical journal, said the findings showed that “aggressively targeting alcohol harms is a valid and necessary public health strategy.”

He said they also showed that current drug classification systems had little relation to the evidence of harm.

Alcohol and tobacco are legal for adults in Britain and many other countries, while drugs such as ecstasy and cannabis and LSD are often illegal and carry the threat of prison sentences.

“It is intriguing to note that the two legal drugs assessed—alcohol and tobacco—score in the upper segment of the ranking scale, indicating that legal drugs cause at least as much harm as do illegal substances,” Nutt, who was formerly head of the influential British Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD), said in a statement about the study.

Nutt was forced to quit the ACMD a year ago after publicly criticizing ministers for ignoring scientific advice suggesting cannabis was less harmful than alcohol.

The World Health Organization estimates that risks linked to alcohol cause 2.5 million deaths a year from heart and liver disease, road accidents, suicides and cancer—accounting for 3.8 percent of all deaths. It is the third leading risk factor for premature death and disabilities worldwide.

In an effort to offer a guide to policy makers in health, policing, and social care, Nutt’s team rated drugs using a technique called multicriteria decision analysis (MCDA) which assessed damage according to nine criteria on harm to the user and seven criteria on harm to others.

Harms to the user included things such as drug-specific or drug-related death, damage to health, drug dependence and loss of relationships, while harms to others included crime, environmental damage, family conflict, international damage, economic cost, and damage to community cohesion.

Drugs were then scored out of 100, with 100 given to the most harmful drug and zero indicating no harm at all.

The scientists found alcohol was most harmful, with a score of 72, followed by heroin with 55 and crack with 54.

Among some of the other drugs assessed were crystal meth (33), cocaine (27), tobacco (26), amphetamine or speed (23), cannabis (20), benzodiazepines, such as Valium (15), ketamine (15), methadone (14), mephedrone (13), ecstasy (9), anabolic steroids (9), LSD (7) and magic mushrooms (5).

Anonymous | May 17 2011 at 12:22 pm

I am confused by this most recent post.  Is the poster recommending a list of other things we should bring to a Bible study?

derek | May 17 2011 at 12:30 pm

To the alcohol/drug poster

So what you’re saying is you know how to copy and paste articles from the internet.

Jahnonymous | May 17 2011 at 9:35 pm

Amen!!!!!  For years I felt like being a Christian meant I had to be constantly worried about how I can interject the Romans road into every conversation.  Come to find out I was just waiting for everyone else to shut up so I could talk.  And that if I’d just relax and listen, with no agenda, I could actually be present in relationship with another human being.  And not that beer is always necessary for that to happen, but it helps!

srs | May 18 2011 at 8:43 am

regarding ‘anonymous expert’ comment….careful where you go with that…i’m pretty sure that excess of anything outside of loving our Lord can potentially lead to a destruction…i’m pretty sure the debate of what excessive alcohol/drug use can do to people was NOT the intent of this blog…we could throw in over-eating, under-eating, over-spending, on and on and on…

i’ve had some absolutely wonderful,  theologically sound discussions with my christian brothers and sister while enjoying a few adult beverages…i believe those times were blessings and were certainly snapshots in time that deepened my faith….per jahnonymous’s comment, i agree, beer is certainly not always necessary, but…i’d also suggest that there is nothing (theologically speaking) wrong with this either, within the context of the apparent charge of this men’s group.  heck i’m ‘thumbs up’ for activities, such as this, that consistently puts a group of folks in a situation where they are discussing, arguing, questioning, listening, learning, loving our Maker and sharing this with one another.

Anonymous | May 18 2011 at 11:31 am

What would you think if the title of this blog was “BYOPB” and it stood for “Bring your own Porn and Bible”?

Probably wouldn’t like it quite as much.  Now ask yourself this question.

1.  How many people do you know off the top of your head that were/are affected by alcohol in their family?  Father or mother an alcoholic, a son or daughter, lost loved ones in car accidents they had with a drunk driver.  Think of friendships that were affected by alcohol.  I’m pretty sure you get to double digits very quick.

2.  Now, think of how many people you know that were/are affected by someone in their family being addicted to porn?  Probably not many.

I’m not advocating porn by any stretch but I guarantee you there would be quite the outcry had the title of this blog been BYOPB.

All that to say, Jean’s blog didn’t need to mention drinking beer at a Bible Study to get his meaning across.

Jean Larroux | May 18 2011 at 12:08 pm

I’m out of town for my son’s graduation or I would be much more engaged in this dialogue, but I must say it delights me to see the running debate going on here.

Just two quick thoughts prior to logging off and engaging back with my fatherly duties:

1.) To the PORN poster: Hmmm… it is interesting that you would equate alcohol with something that is inherently evil and unjustifiable. It is also telling that your assumption is that alcohol was abused (which is un-Biblical). You need to consider that alcohol consumption is actually PRESCRIBED by Scripture and it’s moderate use is commended. It’s abuse is just as forbidden as the overindulgence of fried chicken, but the moderate use in appropriate contexts is NEVER in question.

2.) I’ll give you a though that should really scare all of us—- “It is not what goes into a man’s body which defiles him, but rather what comes out of his heart.” What do you think the percentage would be of children growing up in homes where there was ‘no drinking, smoking, cussing or dancing’ for the ‘sake of the Lord’ and the ‘weaker brother’ only to have those children go off to college and we see that only their behavior was restrained by fear and their hearts were never changed.

I wish all of you could have sat with me as men who APPROPRIATELY enjoyed a few beers in moderation and talked about how Christ was challenging our hearts to be humble, gentle and loving to our families and employees. I would rather have a church full of men who sat weeping with one another over their sin, while they happened to be enjoying a beer, than a thousand ‘righteous’ men who wouldn’t touch the ‘demon alcohol’ but who destroyed their families with self-righteousness, arrogance and pride all in the name of ‘not making their brother stumble’ or protecting their ‘witness’.

I could go on, but…later…y’all have fun!

Anonymous | May 18 2011 at 1:41 pm

Great post Reverend Larroux!

Anonymous | May 19 2011 at 11:26 am

As for porn being unjustifiable, you can justify anything in your life just like you’ve done with alcohol.  I’ve never in my life heard that consuming alcohol was “prescribed” and “commended” in scripture.

Not sure how you can compare abusing alcohol to getting up for seconds at Thanksgiving.  HUGE difference.

If my kids don’t smoke, drink or cuss it isn’t because they fear me and my wife.  They don’t do those things because we live it out in front of them that not doing them is a healthier way to live.

This comment you made blows me away.  “I would rather have a church full of men who sat weeping with one another over their sin, while they happened to be enjoying a beer, than a thousand ‘righteous’ men who wouldn’t touch the ‘demon alcohol’ but who destroyed their families with self-righteousness, arrogance and pride all in the name of ‘not making their brother stumble’ or protecting their ‘witness’.”

You make it sound like those that don’t drink, smoke, do drugs, etc are “self righteous, arrogant and prideful” and those that do drink aren’t?  Really?

FWIW, I don’t mind folks that drink.  I’m around Believers and non-believers all the time that do.  I just don’t believe beer drinking and Bible study go together and I certainly don’t think it’s right for my senior pastor to glamorize and promote it in his writings and from the pulpit.

As was mentioned above, did the fact you guys were drinking beer at this Bible Study really add to the story?

Anonymous | May 19 2011 at 1:12 pm

This may help in the commendation and prescription of alcohol.  I do think it is
interesting that the poster does equate alcohol with porn when one is an obvious abuse and the other is a thing.  Alcohol is not drunkeness, sex with your wife is not porn.  I don’t get the connection.

Here are some thoughts on alcohol in the Scriptures from Third Mil ministries which is an organization that Southwood supports run by Richard Pratt:

Drinking alcohol is not a sin in and of itself. For example, wine is a covenant blessing (e.g. Gen. 27:28; Deut. 7:13; 11:14; 33:28), and was a blessed and acceptable offering to God (e.g. Num. 15:5,7,10). God approved of and encouraged its use (e.g. Deut. 14:26) — arguably in large doses under certain conditions (Prov. 31:6-7). It is to be enjoyed in appropriate ways in appropriate settings, including its use to make “life merry” (Eccl. 10:19; cf. John 2:1-10).

Still, there are commandments against drunkenness and carousing (Eccl. 10:17; Rom. 13:13; Gal. 5:21; 1 Pet. 4:3). The heart of these commandments is that we avoid any drunkenness and loose living, whether caused by alcohol or any other substance. In short, there are ways to drink alcohol that are not sinful, as well as ways to drink alcohol that are sinful.

Anonymous | May 19 2011 at 1:40 pm

Would bring your own putter to a round of goofy golf made a difference?  It adds authenticity to the fellowship.  I feel not mentioning the “beer” would have taken away from the experience.  It shows men can fellowhip responsibily together and share human emotion regardless of what beverage is consumed.  I feel the angry poster is implying that alcohol enhanced the experience… maybe it did, maybe it didn’t.  It’s cool either way. 

Why is beer so different than wine?

Baptisterian | May 20 2011 at 3:37 pm

A politician on the campaign trail was asked about his position on alcohol. “Madam,” replied the policitican, “if you are referring to that vile concoction that destroys the lives of men, tears apart families, and wrecks homes, then I am most certainly against it. “However,” he continued, “if you are referring to that wonderful elixir that stirs hearts, joins peope in mirth and joy, and overcomes barriers to build bonds between those previously at odds, then I am decidedly for it!”

While one may cast this as so many weasel words of a politician, the underlying wisdom of the statement is undeniable. Anything, including alcohol, taken in excess or to extreme, can drive a wedge in a relationship or cause the downfall of an individual. Conversely, most things done in moderation might be equally effective in unification, although my most edifying experiences have been over a well crafted beer, a nice red wine, or (hold on to your hat!) a good single malt scotch. Sometimes involving a fine Dominican cigar, too. The intent of the individual and the state of the heart is the key, not the substance in the glass, mouth, or stomach. Perhaps a discussion on “Sins vs Vices” is warranted for another time and place, but I won’t try to unpack that now.

It might be a pretty bad mistake to cast the responsible consumption of alcohol as the moral equivalent of pornography, illegal drugs, or other such sins.  Really, pornography is not a “victimless crime” nor less destructive than alcohol in terms of human toll. Reams and reams have been written about the insidious nature of pornography and its destructive nature. Countless marriages and families have been completely destroyed. There is no “MADD” equivalent for this - the overwhelming majority of those touched by this are left broken, ashamed and embarassed, so maybe you picked a poor example to contrast. But I digress…..

As to the Biblical basis, I’m sure at least part of where it is prescribed is in Leviticus 23 where the seven major feasts are commanded by God. Many of those include a “drink offering” of wine. The first feast is at the barley harvest, and well, one the uses of barley as we all know is for fermenting into beer or a beer-like drink that is historically traced all the way back to the ancient Egyptians, Sumerians, and yes, the Hebrews….(he-brews, get it?) And, of course Jesus’ first miracle was, in fact, turning water into wine at the marriage feast (John 2), and not only just wine, but the BEST wine in place of cheap wine that was traditionally brought out after everyone was too drunk to notice or care. That was the culture of the day of our Savior and that is where we get the common English figure of speech “saving the best for last”.

We are advised in 1 Timothy 3 to choose deacons and elders who are not “taken to too much wine” or “drunkards”, depending on your preferred translation. Finally, the drinking of fermented beverages was just plain practical, especially for the Israelites during their 40 year sojourn because reliable sources of water were not always readily available and fermented juices were much safer to drink, especially if you are a sheep herder and your flock has necessarily consumed all the fresh water available and all you can find is that cloudy pool left in some hoofprints. Not all alcohol consumption was recreational.

So I think a pretty clear defense of the presence and responsible use of alcohol within the Kingdom is in the Bible. If one prefers not to imbibe, then of course that is completely fine. But one should also feel free to imbibe, whether pastor, elder, deacon, member, or guest (as long as legally of age, of course!) without the unjustified condemnation of others. Just my 2 cents there, folks…..

Jean F. Larroux, III | May 20 2011 at 3:47 pm

Great discussion y’all…I hope everyone’s blood pressure is okay…mine is wonderful. Have great weekend. I’m about to put up a post glamorizing roast beef Po-boys.

Anonymous | May 21 2011 at 6:26 am

Alcohol has no place in American Southern Cultural “Christianity.” I am thankful that I go to a church that doesn’t seek to be a part of that religion.

Bsptisterian | May 21 2011 at 3:54 pm

Why stop at “American Southern Cultural Christianity”? Don’t you or your church love non-Americans, non-Southern Americans, or American Southern non-Christians enough to save them from this practice as well?

Baaptisterian | May 21 2011 at 4:27 pm

A final thought, then I’m off this one. To the various “Anonymi”: the real point is not the propriety of alcohol or whose church has “got it right”. It’s how do you take what goes on in “here” (church) out “there” (where you live, work, & play). Don’t approve of beer? Then start a BYOFCB (Bring Your Own Fried Chicken & Bible). Or BYOITB (Iced Tea). Or BYOBB (Baby - no wait, that’s been done already - thanks Moms In Touch).

Maybe we should spend less time criticizing the mode another brother or sister in Christ is using to share the Gospel and spend more time looking for how we each can do the same in an equally effective venue. You’ve been commissioned by the Lord Himself - now get to it. I like lemon in my tea, by the way.

WEAGAL | May 23 2011 at 6:25 pm

The following post from a previous Anonymous poster is concerning when we consider what the Word tells us about Believers following God’s commands:

“FWIW, I don’t mind folks that drink.  I’m around Believers and non-believers all the time that do.  I just don’t believe beer drinking and Bible study go together and I certainly don’t think it’s right for my senior pastor to glamorize and promote it in his writings and from the pulpit.”

Why shouldn’t beer and bible study go together? It may not go together for all people, just like bible study and banana pudding won’t go together for a diabetic. Still, there is no scriptural foundation indicating that these two must be mutually exclusive…especially when we consider what our Lord asks of us.

Let’s think about our commands from the Lord:

Joshua 24:14 tells us to serve the Lord wholeheartedly. “So fear the Lord and serve him wholeheartedly. “

In serving the Lord wholeheartedly, studying His word will be at our core. If studying His word is at our core, then it will be our desire to study and share it regardless of the situation we are in.

In John, Christ tells us that serving Him is something to be done urgently.  “We must quickly carry out the tasks assigned us by the one who sent us. The night is coming, and then no one can work.” (John 9:4-5)

The urgency stems from the need for all people and all nations to know Him and His word. Otherwise, they will be befall the most despicable fate of all, eternal torture due to separation from our Loving God. Therefore, we must take EVERY opportunity to carry out our assigned tasks.

Let’s further consider how the Lord wants us to serve Him (in other words, what are our assigned tasks?)

“Jesus came and told his disciples, ‘I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’” (Matthew 28:18-20)

We are to make disciples for our Heavenly Father and are to teach them his commands.

He further tells us what he commands of us:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13: 34-35)

We are to love one another and to profess the miraculous works of Christ that we experience in our own lives.  We are to follow these commands and serve God in these ways regardless of our situation, past experiences, biases, insecurities, weaknesses, etc. because it is in these ways that disciples are made.

If disciples are being made and grown through beer and bible study, what right do we as lowly sinful beings have to challenge God’s work? We should praise God that human hearts are being refreshed by his Word.

Ultimately, beer and bible study will not work for everyone. But, it will work for some. If it doesn’t work for you, fine don’t go. Please, for those who find it unappealing, don’t drink the haterade they are serving at your bible study. Instead, praise God that His word is being spread and souls are being harvested.

Larroux: Thank you for being courageous enough to speak the unconventional truth! Because of it, hearts are growing, minds are being challenged, and the unlikely are being reached!

Anonymous | May 23 2011 at 7:06 pm

Amen Weagal! Thank you Larroux, for telling God’s word like it is!

Anonymous | July 21 2011 at 12:33 pm

I attended this event and enjoyed Jeans message greatly.  It is quite interesting and sad to read these comments.  I do not know about the rest of the posters on here, but I am a sinner to the inth degree.  So were the people in that room that night.  You see, our sins make drinking a beer pale in comparison…..all of us.  That was a part of the point.  It’s okay brothers, it’s okay.  So many of us wake up daily putting on that mask, you know the one I’m referring, the one you wear in public playing a role you think defines your beliefs. 

Our discussion spoke to that and many other struggles.  It pains me to see the Forrest being lost for the treess, but it doesn’t surprise me.  I pray we all can drop the facade of pretend perfectness, as their is only ONE who is that. 

Thank you Jean for your courage, your love for your brothers, and for your time.

Call Me Coach | August 07 2011 at 12:40 pm

Ok I got a few posts down the line and I had enough. I am a guy who grew up in a house with an alcoholic and a drug addict. And I also have friends who grew up in the leave it to beaver homes as well. I know I’m a little late but come on?!

There’s a difference in relaxing and enjoying people and their lives and getting hammered. I know it’s kind of cliche but didn’t Jesus turn water to wine? Why would he do that?

And as for what you do in front of your kids being the reason they don’t drink cuss or smoke????? My parent was an alcoholic and drug addict which I am neither so your theory doesn’t fit.

If we want to reach more people and bring them to the gospel we need to get out of leave it to beaver and get REAL