Southwood Presbyterian Church

Anonymous | September 21 2011 at 3:26 pm

The comment about David stealing Bathsheba hit home because if you look at that story, David was at ease when he should have been at war.  So it is with us. We have an ongoing spiritual warfare and therefore we should always be ready for battle.  I experience a constant struggle every day.  Any one else?

John Morley | September 21 2011 at 9:31 pm

Great post! I love your honesty!

In your last paragraph you mentioned that the preaching is insisting that resting in the knowledge of being hidden with Christ in God is mutually exclusive with God’s displeasure in sin, however, I haven’t heard that in any of the sermons. Do you have any specific examples of this?

Also, you’ve asked for exhortations from scripture instead of clever one-liners, and I understand what you’re saying there, however, in my opinion he IS backing up everything he’s saying with scripture. From my seat, it seems that he’s been preaching the exact same message Paul was giving to the Galatians themselves.

I think you may be confusing (in Jean’s preaching) God’s hatred of SIN (biblical), with God’s hatred of the SINNER (not biblical, at least for his children). In your example about David and Bathsheba, the scriptures say “But the thing David had done displeased the Lord.” (2 Samuel 11:27). Notice that it doesn’t say “David displeased the Lord”... rather, it was the sin itself that displeased the Lord.

By the way, when I practice the spiritual disciplines out of my desperation as a sinner needing Christ, my times with the Lord are rich. When done out of a sense of duty or box-checking, they are weak. The scriptures don’t call us to abandon the spiritual disciplines, and I don’t think Jean is either. He’s simply saying that the spiritual disciplines can lead us away from Christ if done out of self-righteous desires instead of being done out of repentance and faith in Christ.

Anonymous | September 23 2011 at 2:36 pm

Thank you, John Morley, for your response.  That answered many questions I had, especially the example of David where “the thing” David did displeased God.

Anonymous | September 24 2011 at 1:48 pm

John Morley,

To answer your question about the person vs. the thing they did, my observation was that Jean has preached recently (I don’t know the date or topic anymore—it was a few weeks back and I can’t quote it verbatim) something about, “After you’ve sinned, do you feel like God’s not pleased with you?” It was something like that. The application (as I remember) was something like, “God’s disposition toward you isn’t any different than before you sinned.” I see what you’re saying about “the thing” vs. “the person doing the thing,” but I still think it needs some fleshing out. There are many examples. Can you say of all of these, “God’s disposition _toward the man_ was no different afterward”?

Saul: “It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments.” (1 Sam 15:11).

Moses: “And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.” (Numbers 20:12)

Uzza: “And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him” (1 Chronicles 13:10).

David: “I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.” (2 Samuel 12:11-12).

Solomon: “And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded. (1 Kings 11:9-10)

In each case, a person was disobedient, and God was angry AT the person. You can make the case that God was only angry at what David did, but not angry at David (tell THAT to his concubines!), but when you look at the history and character of God toward His people in these cases individually, or as a nation, honestly, it doesn’t make sense to say, “Don’t worry—God’s disposition toward you isn’t any different than before you sinned.” That’s falsifiable on it’s face. (Particularly to your observation, John, note that God was angry with Solomon, and angered against Uzza—does your formulation still work?). It’s not like God became different in the New Testament or something.

I still think there is a confusion between Justification and Sanctification here. When Hebrews says, “See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: ... For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb. 12:25,29), how does that reconcile with the statement that we need not worry that God is displeased with us because His disposition toward us is unchanging in Christ? Does Hebrews 12 mean nothing? Or perhaps it was written only for unbelievers? Could you stand on the rooftop and tell David (or his concubines) not to worry because God is only angry at the sin and not the sinner?

I can say (consistently, I believe) that my position before God judicially is unchanged when I sin, because I am in Christ. That’s justification. I can say (consistently, I believe) that the Spirit is grieved when corrupt communication proceeds out of my mouth (Eph 4:29-30). This is a matter of Sanctification, *and my knowledge of His displeasure is from the Word, which sanctifies me.* Knowing that God is displeased with me from a fatherly standpoint (for example “faint when thou art rebuked of him” (Heb 12:5)), is not inconsistent with knowing that “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins” (1 John 1:9). But why is He rebuking me, if His disposition toward me is unchanged from before I sinned? That’s a pretty important piece of information, completely missing from the current exegesis.

John Morley | September 25 2011 at 1:52 am

I don’t remember Jean saying “God’s disposition toward you isn’t any different than before you sinned”, but he may have. If that is indeed what he said, I’d certainly want to hear the context it was in.

Note that in my earlier comments I was talking about God’s hatred of sin vs hatred of the repentant sinner. There is a HUGE semantic difference between the word “anger” and the word “hatred”. I am OFTEN angry at my daughter for not listening and obeying her mom, but at no point in her three years on this earth has the thought “I hate her” EVER entered into my mind. Not even one time. Anger is not synonymous with hatred.

I think we both agree that there is nothing you or I (as Christians) can do to make God stop loving us, therefore, we can not make him hate us, because love and hatred are opposites.

This question of God being angry at us is an interesting one though. You offered some great scripture to look at.

Here are quick summaries of what I see in these verses as they relate to this discussion…

I Samuel 15:11 - God regretted that he made Saul a king

Numbers 20:12 - God disciplines Moses and Aaron

I Chronicles 13:10 - God is angry with and strikes down Uzzah (someone who is never characterized as being in God’s family)

2 Samuel 12:11-12 - God disciplines David

I Kings 11:9-10 - God is angry with Solomon (At that point in his life, he was not showing any repentance. Whether or not he was in God’s family at that point in his life or at any point in his life is not clearly defined in scripture. Here is part of Matthew Henry’s commentary on this scripture… “Though we have reason to hope that he repented, and found mercy, yet the Holy Ghost did not expressly record it, but left it doubtful, as a warning to others not to sin. The guilt may be taken away, but not the reproach; that will remain. Thus it must remain uncertain to us till the day of judgment, whether or not Solomon was left to suffer the everlasting displeasure of an offended God.”)

Out of the five passages, only two of them actually say God was angry at the person, and for those two, there isn’t clear biblical evidence that the persons he was angry with were actually his children at the time.

God certainly chastens his children (like Moses, Aaron, and David), but that’s different than outright anger at them. Punishment does not require anger or disappointment. I punish my three year old almost daily, but I am rarely angry or disappointed with her.

Regarding Hebrews 12, I see God’s loving discipline in that chapter… not anger or disappointment.

We are on the same page with justification. But on sanctification, it sounds like the main thing motivating you is your sense of God’s displeasure in you when you sin. But wow, that is a strategy that will lead to complete bondage! As we progress in our sanctification, we become more and more aware of our sins (see Romans 7:21-25), which for you, will lead only to more and more disappointment! If every sin you recognize causes you to feel God’s displeasure in you, then your relationship with Him can only get worse over time.

If my dad was often displeased in me, and with every year that went by, he became more and more displeased with me, what would happen to our relationship? I would be closed off to him emotionally. I would always be seeking his approval… trying somehow to get him to notice anything good that I did. I would never actually feel loved and accepted by him. Our relationship would be awful. And it would get worse every year.

You asked… “why is He rebuking me, if His disposition toward me is unchanged from before I sinned?”

The answer, is because he LOVES you! His rebuking of you isn’t done out of disappointment, displeasure, anger, or hatred. It is done out of unconditional love! You referenced Hebrews 12:5, but don’t miss out on the glory of the next verse!!!...“the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

When you feel the weight of your sin, when you feel the Holy Spirit burdening your conscience, and when you feel that you are being disciplined by the Lord, it is not his displeasure that you are feeling… IT IS HIS LOVE FOR YOU!!!

And as you become more and more aware of your own sin, your perception of the amount of grace and love given to you by God increases, which then increases your love for God. That is sanctification.

So rejoice that you are feeling the weight of your sin! That means that he loves you! Stop trying to reverse his displeasure of you and seek his approval… you already have it!!! Thank him for convicting you of your sin, repent of that sin, and then rest in your Father’s arms, knowing that you are fully and completely loved.

Anonymous | September 25 2011 at 3:57 pm

Dear John (M.),

Wow, your responses are very thoughtful and insightful. Thanks for them. I agree that the context of Jean’s comment that “God’s disposition toward you isn’t any different than before you sinned” is important. Perhaps in a future blog entry he’ll expound on that, or clarify it. I can’t remember what sermon it was.

But using your insight on this most recent entry, what think ye of Exodus 4:14, “And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses…” or Deuteronomy 9:20 “And the LORD was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time”?

Here God’s anger is directed at the person, and certainly we have to see Moses and Aaron as “in family” at this point, right?

My focus on God’s anger is solely in response to what I consider an untenable position that God’s disposition is completely unchanged toward the believer after a sin. Or the interesting statement “God’s not angry with you, no matter what.” (Jean used this in his Prodigal series, although he was merely saying “they stole it (that saying) from us” because it is relevant to the Prodigal story.) Clearly the verses in this discussion call that statement into question, wouldn’t you agree?

Thanks for your concern for my spiritual well-being. I appreciate it. Although I am a long way from “arriving,” I’m pretty sure (so far as I know my own heart) that is not an issue of introspection that has me sacrificing my firstborn in order to regain His affections, or offering up fasts, bible studies, accountability groups, moments of silence and daily incense to Him in the hopes that I can regain His affections. God chastens and rebukes His children when they sin. When they sin, they grieve the Holy Spirit, and in scripture, God is even said to grow angry at His own children and directs the anger at the person, making it difficult to show conclusively that God’s anger is only directed at the sin or at the reprobate, but not the elect. You are right: He disciplines and chastises us in our sins because He loves us. But when Paul says to the Corinthians that their frolicking drunkenness at the Lord’s Supper is why “many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep” (1 Cor 11:30), he’s actually saying this is a judgment from the Lord because of their sin: “we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world” (v. 32). The judgment and chastening is for His elect, and is intended to sober us up and cause a change in behavior. This, too, is sanctification. But just because it is for the good of His elect lest they be condemned with the world, it is no less judgment and chastening. And certainly a perceptible change in God’s disposition toward His children in their sin—else, we’d have to conclude that the judgment and chastening of the Corinthians was God’s unchanging disposition toward them whether they were drunk at the Lord’s Supper or not.

I appreciate your thoughtful interaction, and look forward to hearing Jean’s thoughts, either here, or from the pulpit.

Thanks, and have a great week!

Anonymous | September 29 2011 at 3:18 pm

Here is a verse about God hating someone:  “The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.” Psalm 11:5.