Southwood Presbyterian Church

Jonathan Barnette | July 05 2011 at 8:02 am

Not sure GRACE is so relevant and worth speaking of continuously? Check out the lyrics from this “new” song:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T’was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
‘Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we’ve been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’ve first begun.

Now since we sing of Grace so oft
It’s up to us right now!
We have to go and DO something
Jean, won’t you tell us how?

(I think one or two of those verses may not have been written by Newton in the 18th century.)

Anonymous | July 05 2011 at 10:02 am

I think this is what Paul had in mind. If we reach a new threshold in understanding Grace, then our natural selves will say: Wait a minute - should we keep on sinning so that Grace may “abound”? (Rom 6)

David Clark | July 05 2011 at 2:37 pm

Where can I get some of that “Sin Boldly Lager”?  Is it sold in the Southwood Bookstore?

Ray Sheppard | July 06 2011 at 4:28 am

Yeah thanks a lot, Jean.

You should put a disclaimer with this “junk” you’re putting out -

MAY LEAD TO SLEEPLESS NIGHTS

How about porn? | July 06 2011 at 5:56 am

May I present some brass tacks to get down to?

Online porn, for example…

Say I’m reading you’re “Lazy Grace” post…I don’t know some word that you use, so I do a Google search for the word, and click on what looks like the first definition page, and on the sidebar of the “dictionary” page is some mild porn, with an invitation to click on it…

At that moment, being a guy, I feel either mild or intense temptation.

Now, I pull out the metaphorical or real Bill Gothard Textbook, and flip to “7 Steps to overcoming sexual temptation”, with corresponding passage of scripture to memorize.

That is Bill’s presented solution.  I don’t know what Mr. G. thinks of grace, but his solution for problems seems to be a certain type of resistance that I believe you call righteousness that needs repenting of.

Okay…

Back to my scenerio…

It sounds to me like you are suggesting not running to get the textbook at that moment.

It sounds like you are saying to

1. Rest
2. Repent
3. Look for motives
4. Look into my heart
5. Examine what I do and why I do it
6. Look for ways I blame God

Okay, 6 steps, which are shorter than Bill’s 7 steps, and there is no memory verse accompanying, so far so good.

Here’s the issue.  You have asked many times “why do you want to be better?” and stated that it is better to be justified than to be good.

Yes, absolutely and eternally.

And I
really
really
really
really
REALLY! don’t want to look at porn.  Or rather, obviously I DO want to look at it (or else it wouldn’t be a temptation) AND I DON’T want to look at it (or else I wouldn’t struggle against it, and have struggled for decades, sometimes sinning, sometimes not; sometimes struggling fiercely with all my might (Bill Gothard Textbook, memory verses, accountability partners, gnashing of teeth, etc), and sometimes worn down and hoping that grace is big enough to handle someone like me, who sins and looks at porn in spite of it all[slacker])

You say I’m supposed to rest, repent, etc…and that makes sense, and I see the grace and justification there.  And you say that the response will be the fruit of the Spirit, and that makes sense, too…

But what about my wife?  I want her to have a husband who loves her by not looking at porn! By not even being tempted by porn, or who is so in love with her and Jesus that I am not falling over and over again.  I hate porn (in part, at least) and hate how it belittles women, belittles men, destroys me, and puts such a burden on me. 

And what if my particular temptation was not online porn, but rather committing serial, physical adultery, and what if that pushed itself on me as forcefully as online porn?  I know that it comes from the same heart of sinfulness (adultery and porn) and I’m no better than adulterer.  The ramifications on my marriage would be greater, though. I might have child support to pay.  It might end in my divorce.  I know I DESERVE divorce, because of my sin, and it is by God’s and my wife’s grace that I’m still married today!

So, back to the computer screen…

I hear you saying repent, rest, look at myself and my motives and look at Christ and grace.  All things that I do, though not very well.

I also, after failing in this area of porn after about a decade of “victory”, by which I mean, not looking at it even though I was tempted, have subscribed to Covenant Eyes, which sends all of the websites that I access with my computer or my smart phone to a buddy, with an analysis of whether he needs to confront me or not.

Does this change my heart?  No, it doesn’t. I am still tempted.  It does, at least for now, help me not click on porn when I am tempted.  I’m not “slacking” in the sense of throwing up my hands and saying “oh, well…grace has got my back, so I’ll go ahead and sin”.

I know that I’m not justified by subscribing to Covenant Eyes…but is this subscription “righteousness I need to repent of” or a healthy resistance to sin?

Your thoughts?

Jean Larroux | July 06 2011 at 7:29 am

Okay, I WANT so desperately to respond, but I’m sermonating and need to make sure I’m ready for Sunday. I’ll post a reply to this on next Monday’s blog. , but let me say that I appreciate the seriousness and the candid way you present us with a REAL-LIFE example of how this applies. I’d encourage some of the rest of you to chime in until then…

One short comment: Grace no more does away with wisdom and self-control than it gives us license to sin. I personally have filters and lockout codes on my television and my computer. They are not primarily for my kids (although they are there for them secondarily), but they are PRIMARILY for me. That isn’t because I have embraced the internet filter as my ‘new savior’ but because I embraced Jesus as my real savior… That may confuse and frustrate you all, but alas to Acts chapter one I must go until Monday, Adieu!

Brock Warner | July 06 2011 at 9:23 am

My thoughts for How About Porn?  Well done…..seriously…..well done.  As Jean stated wisdom is not thrown out the door with grace.  You are fully engaged in self assessment which Grace finally allows with depth for the believer.  While you are headed down the path of truly understanding your “darling” sin, protecting yourself and your family is wise. 

I think now I would rest in that wisdom having for the moment attacked what is possibly a symptom of a deeper sin issue or even wound that allows for your old man to act with aggression towards the new man and his family. 

The very fact that you are wrestling with whether you are being self-righteous or religious is a picture of someone who truly seems to understands Grace. Having the ability to ask yourself the questions you are asking illustrates a man who understands the Gospel, in my humble ( probably not because I had to tell you it was humble) opinion.

Ray Sheppard | July 06 2011 at 3:49 pm

Let’s say you could get rid of your top three sins.  What would happen?

You’d have three more move up the list.

Although my goal may be to get rid of this long list of sins, I have made the unique and never-before-identified discovery (yeah right) that this goal will not be met in my mortal lifetime.  This WAS depressing for me.  I mean really, really irritating.  It also seems illogical since God is holy, right?  Why would His design put an unfulfillable task in front of me?

Well a good friend of mine reminded me that my created purpose is NOT to reach a point of “enlightenment”.  If I had that, then I would not have to bother God with needing that grace stuff that He provides.  There is something amazing to be seen in the elect angels.  You see, they can never sin.  They sing the song that the Lamb is worthy, and yet they can not “feel” the full meaning of it.  They can not praise God the way that we can because they can never taste grace.  They know it but don’t KNOW it (Eph 3;19).  1 Peter 1:12 says that the angels long to look into the grace of our salvation, but they can’t quite comprehend it.  We have something they wish they could understand fully.  We have something they don’t have and never will need.  We are the ones that can sing the praises of grace and mercy like no other created being.  And that is my created purpose - to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

Ohh, but this sin feels so yucky (after I have indulged).  It is also causes so many problems.  I feel so wretched! What could rescue me from this crazy predicament?

I need a savior!  Oh, but the Father supplies this!  Does this help me see some of His attributes (grace, mercy, love)?  Does this help me love Him?  Maybe God knows that I don’t need to be freed from my sins, but what I really need is HIM.

So I was not made like the elect angels.  I’m pretty sure this lump of clay can’t tell the potter what kind of vessel He is going to make.

Now do people that hate God, hate the fact that they sin?  NOPE

That’s pretty good news for you and for me.  Evidence of a deposit.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the more I behold the loveliness of God, things that are not God (i.e. sin) will look more and more like dog vomit and perhaps become less appetizing.  I think the vomit is at one end of a line and God at the other with me in the middle.  If I have my back to the vomit, it is hard to see.  If it is in my peripheral vision…Wait.  What I meant to say is that if my face is toward God then I can’t see the…what?...what was I saying?...this is so beautiful I don’t seem to want to look anywhere else.

But I could be wrong.  I guess I’ll have to wait until Jean carves this up.

In any case I’ll wash my hands before eating dinner and use safe-handling practices with raw chicken even though I’ll pray to God before I eat.

Josh Treen | July 07 2011 at 5:22 am

Can I start by saying how much I appreciate this discourse on a topic that most people find taboo and just simply allow it to fester.

I’ll be brief - I think that what it comes down to is grace is the only thing that will move you to long-term permanent repentance. Personally, without grace, trying to do it with my own resistance leads to short-term success but long-term failure.

On my own, I fall into this routine of quiet time, exercise, accountability groups (that never end up working) and my attitude goes to a version of the prosperity gospel which says “Lord, don’t you see? I’m doing my part!! I checked all the boxes!! Why won’t you do your part??”

Grace is the only thing that will lead to the metaphorical cutting off of ones hand or gouging out of ones eye. Grace tells me that I am loved enough and accepted enough to tell my wife, to enlist her in my accountability, to seek professional help to determine external factors that are leading me to weakness and temptation, to realize that I am a broken addict who has no more business surfing the Internet than an alcoholic does hanging out in bars. It makes me ok putting my name on this post because I don’t have any appearances left to keep up. All the while I can address my sin full of the confidence that my Savior adores me! He does not think that I’m disgusting and he knows that I’m even more broken than I realize and yet he still draws me close and embraces me in the midst of my darkness. He calls me to righteousness, not to earn his favor but because of it. Grace did what my works never could because it allowed me to make public that which I wanted to hide.

One last thing. If you are reading this and you would like someone to talk to, call me. (256) 652-5845. I will stop and talk. I will meet you and talk. The only thing that I have to offer is grace but that is enough.

Matt Patrick | July 07 2011 at 10:00 am

So encouraged by this post and the conversation that follows!!

Anonymous | July 07 2011 at 9:48 pm

I keep remembering the roots of Gothard’s influence in my young life and how it can still cast a particular shadow ....confusion yuk! I should have known that for what it was since I was early indoctrinated into JW’s but I didn’t. Again all things worked together for the good…and again those years punctuated grace….

I am old now, old and grateful, grateful, grateful to have awaken to see Grace, yes, His Amazing Grace! Run, run, run the race and endurance will come!

Thanks for this most excellent and timely writ!

HB is SC | July 12 2011 at 3:24 pm

I was turned on to this conversation by my pastor as we are having a discourse about grace.

I am a RECOVERED alcoholic. The last time I took a drink was on May 21, 1991. I have a case of beer on the carport and five in the frig should company come by (I bought the beer for a Christmas party five years ago, along with various liquors that are under my stair case some where). Right now I am unemployed, facing foreclosure and other financial problems that only God can solve. The thought of drinking is not existent for me and my wife (her sobriety date is July 7, 1990, 10 months more than me, a fact that keeps me somewhat humble). I have struggled with internet porn as well. If anyone wants to put their sin list up against mine bring it on!

I couldn’t help but notice the list above:
1. Rest
2. Repent
3. Look for motives
4. Look into my heart
5. Examine what I do and why I do it
6. Look for ways I blame God
and notice one glaring omission. It is the most grace centered “action” and I rarely find it in the church. It is very simple yet staggeringly complex (paradoxical in other words).

Drum roll please, here it is- How ‘bout asking God to take away your desire to look at porn?

I can hear the theological chorus from you guys, “That won’t work, too simple” or “I have tried that it doesn’t work”. Don’t worry whatever you’re thinking I’ve heard it most probably.

Here’s the kicker. Most of you who think they have prayed this prayer have actually prayed “God help ME to resist this temptation” or “help ME overcome this.” Won’t work, and thank goodness it doesn’t work, but I digress.

If there is any way I can take credit for “victory” over porn, no matter how minute, God is not going to give me “victory” over porn. When I say “victory” I mean the same attitude I have about alcohol. I had just a soon go out to my carport and drink the acid out of my car’s battery than that beer. Do I get any credit for that? No, none. I quit drinking because one weekend 20 years ago I started drinking and could not get drunk. Liquor quit working for me. I didn’t have a liquor problem, I had a liquor solution and that solution went away through no doing of my own and learning to live without my chief means of coping has been hard, but wonderfully hard. The difficulty is always centered in my inability to believe God is exactly who he said he is (John 6:29).

The porn issue is no different. It is a way of coping with life. The porn is just unresolved sin (lack of repentance due to unbelief) manifesting itself outwardly. Should you be able to not look at porn (using a filter, accountability group) this unresolved sin will just manifest itself in another way (pride that you aren’t looking at porn, being restless irritable and discontented) until it is dealt with.
It was only when I come (present tense) to the point of saying, “God, there is not a damn thing I can do about this porn issue. It has me whipped. If you want me to be a porn-watching Christian I’ll be a porn-watching Christian. This problem is yours. I don’t think you want me to be a porn-watching Christian and I pray that you will deliver me but I just can deal with it. Lord, please give me some men who, like me, are whipped (this is not an accountability group, those never, ever, work) so that they will not be afraid to be transparent and so we can see you working in each others lives (Josh Treen is on the money with his phone number). I surrender, if I look at a porn link and have no interest in it, it will be to your glory.” It is only at this point that true confession and repentance (of all sin, even old sin we thought not pertinent) can happen. This freedom allows amends be made and a real housecleaning to occur. We are as sick as our secrets. As long as the church views the solution in any other context it will be plagued by porn. It is not about the porn.

I know this post is going reveal my lack of theological education and training. I know you all think that trusting God to such an extent is just too radical (it would never pass General Assemble) and irresponsible (too much grace). All I can say is “once I was blind but now I see” and it is all to His glory. 
Love to all, peace out,
Hal

Cindy Howard | July 13 2011 at 9:30 am

Thank you men for speaking up. It does more for this woman knowing there are strong men speaking the truth than you can imagine. Thank you all for sharing your lives so transparently.

Brock Warner | July 14 2011 at 9:05 am

Hal,

I don’t think you will find anyone at Southwood disagreeing with you on your post, not sure why you think we would?  I am not sure why you feel the General Assembly has any sway over our desire to trust in God more or less?

Your experience is exactly what many of us at Southwood have experienced both through the Gospel and through the transparent relationships that we encourage. 

Thank you for your input, but unless I am wrong no one here should have made you feel defensive in your experience.  We AGREE with you.

Hal Blackwell | July 14 2011 at 12:00 pm

Brock,
I pulled the trigger too early on my previous post. After reading some of the other stuff on this blog I was blown away. There is really someone out there who agrees with me! I love it. Reading Jean’s “How the Gospel Works” was a very exciting experience. I know now why my pastor sent me to Knots. I’m not crazy!
Thanks be to God for all you “Heavy Gracers” in Alabama!
Hal

William Plott | July 27 2011 at 8:05 am

One thing that the culture of rugged individualism in America has done is individualize our faith.  We are so private with our sins and struggles and even with our celebrations.  In other words, we believe our spiritual journey is done alone.  Sure, others are on the same journey, but we don’t see them…they are not within shouting distance.  This puts an interesting spin on how we apply grace as well!  I must apply grace individually and alone. 

Here is the rub.  The life of a believer is not an individual sport.  We are not walking alone.  We are on the journey together.  Every application in the book of Ephesians is giving in the second person PLURAL.  “You (ya’ll…plural) are dead in your trespasses and sins.”  “You (plural) were made alive…by grace you (plural) have been saved.”  So…we should never find accountability along our journey (whether with a friend or with a computer program) as WEAKNESS in grace.  Brock nailed it.  Well done.  We walk together in grace.