Southwood Presbyterian Church

Anonymous | January 24 2011 at 12:00 pm

I don’t know who asked the question but I disagree with the answer.

I doubt the “question asker” defines “better” as depending “less and less on Christ.”  It sounded like to be they meant how can I sin less and less if I keep FOCUSING on what a sinner I am.

I agree with you that “Christianity is lived by drinking more deeply of the Gospel every day and seeing our need of Christ more and more which is accomplished by first seeing our sin. But the rest of the Gospel is that then I live more like Christ because I am,  as you said, “awestruck over grace”.

Yes, I believe that every day and maybe several times a day the Christian life starts with acknoledging my “brokeness and dependancy on Christ”.  But its doesn’t stay there.  We move on to live as a New Creation by the power of Christ in me.

I think I should be sinning less and less because I am depending on him more and more.  Isn’t that what Sanctification is?  Progressive?

If there is not “fruit”, have I really understood the Gospel.

Scotty Smith said it this way in his January 22nd post.  “We cannot love others well if we stay preoccupied with our failures and brokenness. I’m not asking for greater self-esteem, but greater esteem for you, Jesus. That’s where freedom to love well is found, and nowhere else. I’m not a victim making excuses, but a beloved child of God crying for greater gospel-health.”

Anonymous | January 24 2011 at 2:47 pm

Of course your assumption is wrong - that the motive or objective behind the question is to be ‘less dependent on Christ’ .

You dodged the question or maybe don’t understand it.

This person is a Christian and seeking Christ and believes from scripture that we have hope in this life to not be slaves to sin.

What say you?

Anonymous | January 24 2011 at 2:51 pm

I wish I had a picture of a politician I could attach and place beside your “PERFECT LN” photo.

Anonymous | January 24 2011 at 3:26 pm

I believe with everything in me that until we truly understand that our church is full of broken wagon wheels and that we need a safe place, ie. our church, to expose our brokeness and willingly accept the help of our church brethren to help us mend the brokeness, we will not “get better”.

For years, as a believing christian, I battled a particular sin bondage/addiction.  I acknowledged my sin to God and cried out to Him to “remove” this bondage/addiction.  I would determine not to continue in this sin, and even went long periods of time “being good”.  However, eventually and often I would return to my besetting sin/bondage/addiction just as a dog returns to his own vomit.  A couple of years ago, I was confronted with my sin (I believe by God’s grace) in a way that brought me to my knees.  I gained understanding that I needed to do more than just acknowledge my sin, I had to EXPOSE my sin and seek the help and understanding of my brothers to release me from this bondage.  I did this with the pastor of my former church, a church that I now know doesn’t understand the principal of broken wagon wheels and how grace works to restore.  My circumstance and the circomstance that originally brought me to my knees was cause for this church to ask me and my family to leave, even though I was repentant and asking for help in restoration.  This led me and my family to Southwood (now, looking back I understand that this also was the hand of God leading us to where true Grace and restoration could be found).  Through the preaching of Grace from Southwoods pulpit and getting into a recovery program with others who understood this bondage/addiction, I am now under no such bondage, for two blessed years now.

I had heard all my life, or at least understood what I was hearing, that Grace “got you saved” and then you have to “clean up your act” or “get better”.  I know for some this may work out ok, but for me, I didn’t understand that it was because of this investment of Grace that my holiness was a return on God’s investment.  That I had to have the help of other brothers and a graceful church to truly know how to become holy.

Teaching the “disciplines” of a christian life without the true understanding of Grace and how Grace fleshes itself out in a caring body of believers is nothing more that pharisetical teaching and rules, in my humble opinion.

I will repeat myself, until we all “get it” about Grace, we will just “go through the motions”.  The outflow of a Grace filled life is discipline and discipleship.  Returning the investement God made in me through the pouting out of Grace, even while yet in my sin!!!!

Anonymous | January 24 2011 at 3:30 pm

Oops, I meant pouring out of Grace in my last sentence.

Sorry.

Anonymous | January 24 2011 at 5:02 pm

The Gospel may not necessarily be about getting better, but it sure does make some people bitter.

newfoundFreeThinker | January 25 2011 at 1:26 pm

First of all let me say thank you. Whether you intended it or not, your erroneous assumptions and subsequent answering of your own question caused me to deviate from my default “My pastor said it, he is smarter than I am, therefore it must be true” mode. So what did I learn as I set off in prayer and research?

1. Sanctification is real and progressive. Martin Luther defined it this way:

“This life therefore is not righteousness but growth in righteousness;
not health but healing;
not being but becoming;
not rest but exercise.

We are not yet what we shall be, but we are growing toward it.
The process is not finished, but it is going on.
This is not the end, but it is the road.
All does not yet gleam in glory, but all is being purified.”

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/the-journey-of-sanctification#

2. How do we become sanctified? By continually re-orienting ourselves to our justification. In other words, continually acknowledging we are a “broken wagon wheel” which points us to the wonderful sacrifice Christ made for us. This focus fills us with inner joy and desire to please and resemble our Lord through obedience. (I got all this from the second question posed to Tim Keller here: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/kellerinterview.html).

3. Where does it break down for me? I think sometimes I don’t make the jump from “dwelling” on my sin to “dwelling” on what Christ did to take care of my sin.

So there you go original poster, your hope is that you are a “broken wagon wheel”, Christ justified you, and the more you dwell on that the more the Holy Spirit will take you down the sanctification path.

Jean F. Larroux, III | January 26 2011 at 11:16 am

I love/appreciate all the good comments on this subject. I’m going to post another message from Rev. Joe Novenson that I heard last night. It was most helpful and right in line with what has been said already.

Sanctification is not a progressive movement of greater and greater success in the Christian life whereby my dependence on Jesus is lessened, but rather a growth IN dependence on Christ (as NEWFOUNDFREETHINKER posted). Ironically, greater need and awareness of sin as well as growth IN dependence DOES produce fruit in the Christian’s life.
I don’t think that Luther’s quote above is an endorsement of progressive sanctification but rather a description of the Christian life as a continual process of seeing the depths of our Sin and the glory of Christ. See Les Newsom’s paper- it is very helpful.

Here is Luther’s own description of what His personal sanctification looked like:

“I myself have now been preaching and cultivating it [Grace] through reading and writing for almost twenty years and still I feel the old clinging dirt of wanting to deal so with God that I may contribute something, so that he will have to give me his grace in exchange for my holiness. Still I cannot get it into my head that I should surrender myself completely to sheer grace; yet [I know that] this is what I should and must do.”
SERMON ON THE SUM OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE, LW 284

Luther’s heart was continually aware of the ‘old clinging dirt’ of wanting his own progress, performance and duty to merit God’s favor and yet found himself over and over repenting of his progress and DESIRE for progress because BOTH were movements away from Grace.

Jahnonymous | January 26 2011 at 9:22 pm

Dear newfoundfreethinker…the concepts you’re describing are not mutually exclusive.  I agree with you and another poster on the point that you cannot dwell on mistakes to the extent that you become self-absorbed with guilt, grief, anxiety, depression,etc…but I don’t think that’s what Jean, or Luther, is saying.  Sanctification is a process, and it does make you “better” in a manner of speaking…but not like you would think.  By learning to see your state as more profoundly depraved than you did yesterday, you begin to see Jesus as more profoundly precious.  Sort of like how Paul started off calling himself the least among the apostles and ended up calling himself the chief among sinners…as he was “sanctified” his sin got bigger in his own eyes.  So I look at it like this…we know from the sermon on the mount that outward behavior means diddly squat…and we know this because Jesus told us that he who hates is brother murders him, and he who lusts after another commits adultry.  He didn’t just say hating is LIKE murder, he said it IS murder.  So in other words, he was telling his hearers that they’re worse off than they think, and they can’t depend on their goodness.  Their only hope is to realize the lowliness of their situation, and to never forget it, so that their hearts won’t be deceived by their own merit, and they would, in turn, be desparate for Jesus.  this is sanctification…learning how to never forget just how bad you are…so that you never forget just how much you need Jesus.  And it doesn’t necessarily give you outward victory over sin.  Just look at people like Brennan manning.  He’ll always struggle with alcoholism.  He may never be free of it, in this life.  But even so, i trust that he is being sanctified.  I trust that his eyes are being opened to the enormity of his sin, and it’s causing him to love Jesus more than he did the day before.

BEST BLOG EVER!!!

Anonymous | January 27 2011 at 9:21 am

So the “New Creation” (2 Cor 5:17) is new in that it can see its depravity “better”?

In what other ways (if any) is the “New Creation” new?

newfoundFreeThinker | January 27 2011 at 11:13 am

I think I’m understanding. I was under the false impression that sanctification was the outward “fruit” of a Christian. I have always known that we can’t produce the fruit ourselves (works) so it made sense to me that by focusing on my sin and the grace that has been given to me I would “desire to please and resemble our Lord through obedience” (as Keller put it). This is a true statement but the obedience part isn’t referring to sanctification.

I’m hearing Jean and Jahnonymous clarify that the act of realizing each day that I need grace more and more is sanctification and that the way I realize I need grace more and more is by realizing my sin more and more.

Makes a lot of sense now. What do you know, my pastor is smarter than me.

Anonymous | January 31 2011 at 2:36 pm

After my comments on the 24th where I shared some of my sin/bondage/addiction struggles, the next anonymous commenter (other than me correcting a misworded sentence….  ) stated He/She was not sure if the Gospel made anyone better, but it sure made some bitter..

I don’t know if that comment was directed at my story, however, after re-reading my comments several times, I can see how someone could take my comments about my former church as bitterness.  So, I wanted to make the record straight.

Touche’!!  If those comments were a response to my story, you surmised correctly that at one time I was very bitter.  But through my recovery and new understanding of Grace, I learned that someone who has received this Grace outflows with that same Grace.  I did not do it perfectly or overnight.  I still do not do it well most days.  But, I have been learning.  I am sorry if some bitterness came through in my typed words.  I am no longer bitter, just thankful.

Thanks for letting me comment again.

Anonymous | February 01 2011 at 11:40 am

The new creation is now actually capable of seeing his/her depravity and now can heed the Spirit and that is the hope of overcoming what the original question posted about habitual sin.  However as a result of being a new creation a person is also able to see more and more the need for Christ.  The old creation has no way of doing so, but again because it is not of our own doing, the newness of the creation was God’s work and should once again have us on our knees or our hands held high at the wonder of his grace.

It is a definite paradigm shift for many in our southern religious culture.  I have found freedom in it and pray that many in our church and city will find the same.

Hating the Mask | February 04 2011 at 2:36 pm

I’m enjoying all this banter.  I think we Southern Christians have swallowed a hook and think the tug in our throat is normal.  I hate wearing a mask to church, but also don’t like being shunned if I don’t.  It is a lose lose battle.  I stand strong one minute with Christ at the helm, and then fall flat the very next.  I am weak.  The only hope I have is Jesus’ grace and power.  The definition of sanctification is resting.  We are clanging noise in our own strength and - wow -  when we rest in Him we are attractive to the true followers and seekers and offensive to everyone else.  I think Jean is saying to focus on being broken as long as it takes to be real.  Admit that you cuss - whether in word or not - REAL.  Let me be real.  I don’t pray enough, I don’t study and memorize scripture enough, I don’t love well enough, the list goes on.  But God multiplies fruit with little offerings.  The best offering is honesty and surrender.

wear no mask | February 05 2011 at 2:36 pm

I agree with “HATING THE MASK”. The mask must come off and Christ shine forth.  The more Christ-like we become the more the world hates us. The world and its ways are and always will be offended by Christ and His followers. But the true followers of Christ will be drawn to one another and love and build one another up.

Anonymous123 | February 08 2011 at 2:22 pm

To the person who was asking how the “New Creation” is “new”...

There is a phrase that is thrown around in reformed circles that is often overused, but I think it is appropriate to mention it here. It is the concept of the Already, but Not Yet. It is a paradox of the faith, and this phrase is our best shot at making it logical.

The “Already” is this: Our standing before Christ because of His substitutionary atonement is final and complete. We are “new” because we are no longer under the guilt of our sin. This does not mean freedom from sin in this life in the complete sense of the concept of “freedom”. However, there were sinful actions that I committed before that I no longer act upon. However, what I have realized through sanctification is the true depth of my sin. That is, despite not “behaving” a certain way anymore, my heart still longs and desires for those things. We begin to realize more and more the absolute necessity of the gospel at every moment. Sanctification, as I see it, is the continuing reminder of the need for His Justification. The two cannot be separated. To talk about one without the other is a half truth.

The error in understanding sanctification usually comes in this: we blend the “already” with the “not yet” of redemption. The already consists of our judicial standing before God the Father: Not Guilty. This aspect of redemption still consists of the Christian with a sinful disposition. Justification is not the gateway to freedom FROM sin, but the freedom to struggle against it. Think about it. What would it mean to be left to your sin? Our God is amazing for showing us that need!

The “Not Yet” is the very thing that people are desiring in this thread. The “Not Yet” IS freedom from sin. It is the FINAL New Creation. It is the completion of the final work.

Think about this illustration:
On D-Day when U.S. troops stormed the beaches of Normandy, the victory that occurred there secured the victory for the Allies. It was the hinge on which the outcome of the war would swing. However, the war didn’t end with that victory. Lives were still lost, battles fought, and small victories won. It wasn’t until later that the war ended, but it was because of the victory at Normandy. Calvary is the Christians Normandy. It has secured our victory. Yet there are battles to be fought, lives to be lost, and we will not be complete until the final New Creation arrives.

So, with that, come quickly Lord Jesus!

Anonymous | February 08 2011 at 5:10 pm

Thanks to Anonymous123 and others in this thread who don’t cut and paste Luther, Tim Keller, etc. I don’t mean to diminish their incredible status but do enjoy hearing what people in our church think or how they interpret what has been written in scripture or commentary.

I still know that I don’t fully understand the new creation. I dare say it is likely more than a ‘judicial standing’ as one posted but also includes newness to ‘heed the spirit’ from another post. Scripture seems to illustrate it as a spiritual reality but we experientially know it is not a physical one. The whole problem with our chronological reasoning gets in the way of this presumable tension. Praise God, he does not struggle with this, or anything else for that matter.

This new heart of flesh given to us by the Almighty, along with His indwelling Spirit (Ezekiel 36:26) has to cause some ‘newness’ in us that we may find taboo to discuss. There are pitfalls in discussing it too much - pride, focus on self, etc. However, I believe there could be pitfalls in not discussing it enough. I pray these words from scripture give hope to the hopeless.